Curse

The Chimpster · Aug 20, 2006, 01:18 PM // 13:18

A very debatable and prehaps infamatory issue but one that nevertheless needs to be addressed.

Why oh why are warriors the main damage dealers? As the Factions manual states, the warrior is meant to be the "tank" and the elementists supposedly cause the most damage in one strike. Yes the above things are true however, the warrior can cause so much more damager per second over the elementist that the elementist role is pointless.

How many elementists do you see now in GvG that aren't flashbots? Virtually none, sad but true. Yes I realise that AoE damage is the name of the game but one look at the dervish and we can see that their dominance in that field is limited too.

Let warriors continue to be the tank but lets not have them as the biggest dealer of direct damage, bring eles back into the fray of competitve PvE and PvP - buff them up and let them perform the role they were designed for!

Align · Aug 20, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

If the warriors aren't a threat and can take tons of damage, why would anyone attack them? Pointless class that would only serve to make games longer than they should be.
Eles need a buff, yes, but not by nerfing warriors.

RotteN · Aug 20, 2006, 01:38 PM // 13:38

why would you buff elementalists ? what kind of buff are you thinking off ? more damage ? ever faced a solid ele spike team ? please, don't give them more damage output.

Stop raving about warriors already, yes, they have the best DPS in the game when they can do what they want. However every class has warrior shutdown, going from necro hexes, mesmer hexes, wards, blind, evading/blocking stances, evading/blocking enchantments, ...

Warriors can indeed do an insane amount of damage, but they face the most shutdown potential any class can face ingame, so that kind of balances it out, doesn't it ?

classes are fine as they are, people should stop asking for a buff for their favourite class

The Chimpster · Aug 20, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Yes, there are a lot of anti warrior measures but the fact still remains that warriors have the highest armour and the highest offensive potential. That crown should surely lie with the elementist. They already have weak armour and have just as many counter measures as a warrior.
Mesmers are designed to shut down casters just as efficently as they can shut down warriors. In fact, I'd go as far to say that eles are easier to shut down then warriors by far.

While I do have an elementist, it's not my favourite class, my monk gets that trophy. However, just looking across at the elementist skills, half of them are pointless (smiting skills are better most of the time), and the other half are outshone by other classes - either warriors, necros or smiting monks.

I'm not saying that Anet should take the bite completely out of warriors, far from it, I'm simply saying that the balance needs to be shifted as the elementists are a redundant class (with the exception of the flashbot) PvP wise.

Avarre · Aug 20, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Considering practically every team has an ele to support heal party and flagrun in gvg, I'd say their use is fairly even. I don't recall the law of the universe saying elementalists had to be max damage dealers either.

Nuker was a word carried from other games where mages are the damage, here, eles are spike/support/runner class, with pve aoe damage.

It's kinda hard to raise ele damage without turning ele spike into a new hell. Also hard to reduce warriors without making them obsolete pvp-wise...

Rancour · Aug 20, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote from Factions manual: "With magic derived from the very foundations of nature itself, Elementalists can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession."

Quote from Prophecies manual: "They can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession."

Technically, Anet makes the laws of the Guildwars universe, meaning there IS a "law of the universe" saying they are supposed to be max damage dealers.

The Chimpster · Aug 20, 2006, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Considering practically every team has an ele to support heal party and flagrun in gvg, I'd say their use is fairly even. I don't recall the law of the universe saying elementalists had to be max damage dealers either.

As rancour said, they have already mentioned things along those lines. + I have already mentioned a few times that the flashbot is the exception to the rule. Just looking at pure damage though, a smiting monk is far more effective and has far more appealing skills to use in that reguard. Also the necromancer has some great direct damage skills and with the exception of obsidian flame - can perform more direct damage in one strike than an elementist (as can a smiter).

I just want to see more balance, at the moment theres very little point of bringing an elementist into GvG unless it's setup to either run, or support heal. That's certainly not what elementists are advertised as on the tin.

And also - warriors will still have plenty of use in PvP, their armour is simply unparalled and the constant pressure they can provide via knockdowns etc is useful to say the least. I just don't think they should be primary damage dealers compared to elementists.

Gizmo Loco · Aug 20, 2006, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rancour

Quote from Factions manual: "With magic derived from the very foundations of nature itself, Elementalists can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession."

Quote from Prophecies manual: "They can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession."

Technically, Anet makes the laws of the Guildwars universe, meaning there IS a "law of the universe" saying they are supposed to be max damage dealers.

With a single strike, perhaps. A Lightning Orb with 16 Air? But does that give them the best DPS, I dont think so.

Ele's in PvP are a support class with a few damaging spells, at least in GvG - Water Snares or Air with BFlash etc. In HA, you have Defensive Wards, and AoE Fire Eles (Starburst, etc). Most of the time, they will run support skills like Heal Party, Extinguish, Aegis. Similar to the Necromancer, a Support class but with hexes inplace of the damage.

fallot · Aug 20, 2006, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Is your issue with the manual or with GW mechanics ? I'm personally very comfortable with Warriors as the best source of damage, there is nothing inherently wrong with that. Elementalists are just advertised incorrectly in some places.

curtman · Aug 20, 2006, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Warriors do not need nerfing, the knight armor nerf is enough. I agree that Es do need a buff. The only nerfing that needs doing is putting Touch skills in soul, so the Luxons cannot send their 4-8 man R/N squads to ABs. Doing so would allow Necros to touch, but prefevents the touch and evasion thing which make the R/N cheap. Once that happens, the existing classes are balanced.

Rancour · Aug 20, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Well, I have to agree with Fallot here.. Sorta.

I think they need to buff the elementalist to a point where they are more what they ARE (support class) instead of what they're worked up to be (damage dealers). Or the other way around, but please choose ONE Anet. At the moment elementalists are support characters with good damage potential; the warrior has huge damage potential. I reckon, either give the Elementalists equally huge (or huger) damage potential than warriors, or buff their support skills.

On the other hand, I would like to have something other than warriors dealing the damage. I don't like the feeling of every class being in the warriors shadow, supporting him while he chops all the enemies to bits.

Oh for christ sake, I don't know what I want...

EternalTempest · Aug 20, 2006, 04:40 PM // 16:40

hmm @OP

/Unsinged to nerfing Warriors Offense.. I feel it's fine where it's at

/Signed to upping Ele's a bit in the damage department but it's trickey issue. Ensign has the best insight I've seen on the current state of ele's.

Vyral · Aug 20, 2006, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by curtman

The only nerfing that needs doing is putting Touch skills in soul, so the Luxons cannot send their 4-8 man R/N squads to ABs.

*pages through the gamebook trying to figure out where it says touch skills are Luxon specific*

The Chimpster · Aug 20, 2006, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rancour

On the other hand, I would like to have something other than warriors dealing the damage. I don't like the feeling of every class being in the warriors shadow, supporting him while he chops all the enemies to bits.

That's precisely the way I feel about it. Currently theres little variation on offense. Sins do provide another outlet prehaps but thats a different argument altogether. I just think that warriors are still a touch unbalanced. I admit my main issue is with elementists needing a buff, but I think it's the same issue all in all.

TheOneMephisto · Aug 20, 2006, 05:17 PM // 17:17

You can up ele damage, but you have to be VERY careful not to up their spike potential too much.

Actually, eles (especially fire) have some workable damage skills. The problems are more on the cast times, recharges, and energy costs of those said damage skills. I think (besides agreeing with a lot of what Ensign says) that they just need to go look at eles, and then cut a lot of skills cast times and recharges about in half, then drop the energy cost on a lot of them, then perhaps add exhaustion on a couple more, making you choose between taking a few exhaustion skills.

ubermancer · Aug 20, 2006, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gizmo Loco

With a single strike, perhaps. A Lightning Orb with 16 Air? But does that give them the best DPS, I dont think so.

Ele's in PvP are a support class with a few damaging spells, at least in GvG - Water Snares or Air with BFlash etc. In HA, you have Defensive Wards, and AoE Fire Eles (Starburst, etc). Most of the time, they will run support skills like Heal Party, Extinguish, Aegis. Similar to the Necromancer, a Support class but with hexes inplace of the damage.

If this game was about DPS I would run Cleave in PVP.

SnipiousMax · Aug 20, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

If this game was about DPS I would run Cleave in PVP.

You beat me too it.

lishi · Aug 20, 2006, 06:59 PM // 18:59

rework elementalist skill , but their damage is more then enough

Elementalist can deal massive damage on pve(only a ss or mm necro can do more but that isnt a skill fault : its pve enemy design , ever organized mob team should have corpose control and hex removal)

in pvp they can make the difference who kill.

i wont tell you how, you have to try the witch spike is more effective between
2 warrior

and

1 warrior + 1 ele.

(dont take out the calc , its on a real situation , not teorical)

lishi · Aug 20, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

rework elementalist skill , but their damage is more then enough

Elementalist can deal massive damage on pve(only a ss or mm necro can do more but that isnt a skill fault : its pve enemy design , ever organized mob team should have corpose control and hex removal)

in pvp they can make the difference who kill.

i wont tell you how, you have to try the witch spike is more effective between
2 warrior

and

1 warrior + 1 ele.

(dont take out the calc , its on a real situation , not teorical)

Chilly Ress · Aug 20, 2006, 07:51 PM // 19:51

We are talking PvP here hopefully-because in high-end PvE areas Ele's do MUCH more damage than warriors. (DPS wise). This is because everything has higher armor and the high damage ele spells get more damage through having a net damage higher than a warrior's.

However, in PvP, since most teams have 5-6+ players 70- armor, and many with 60-, warrior attacks do not do more damage per hit than an ele's, but since they an attack more often and use their skills more often for the most part they have a higher DPS taking into consideration that opponents in PvP have a lower level of armor.

This should settle why warriors have a higher DPS in PvE, but, face it, unless a major increase in damage buff is given to ele's, warriors will continue to have a higher dps than eles even if their skill recharge times are decreased a bit. The only way an ele will ever have a higher dps in PvP is if all their skills have insta-recharge.

~Chill